Sam Lowry said:
Porteroso said:
Sam Lowry said:
Porteroso said:
Sam Lowry said:
Porteroso said:
Sam Lowry said:
Porteroso said:
Kingdom Bear said:
Porteroso said:
Russia still bad. Invading is so Ghengis Khan. Nobody busy trying to establish the old Soviet Empire is a good guy. Ukraine probably only slightly a better guy, still bad, but did not deserve all this death and bloodshed.
We can talk corruption all day and be wishy washy, but the people who are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths are just simply bad guys. If you need further help I suggest going back to Kindergarten.
You are correct. The people who are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths are the bad guys. Remind me: Which nation undermined the peace agreement that was on the table and continues to fund the war to the tune of a hundred billion dollars? If you can't see what the globalists are trying to do through NATO to Russia then you will continue to misunderstand and mischaracterize the situation.
It's interesting that you need such a reminder. Russia invaded Crimea many years before anyone was talking about Ukraine joining NATO. It is likely that nobody would have pushed Ukraine to join NATO had Russia kept to its side of the border.
You might want to double check that timeline.
Nope. The push for Ukraine to be included in NATO was after Crimea was invaded. Unless you go back to the formation of NATO.
No, but really...go look it up.
Is this wiki just full of errors?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations
"US President George W. Bush and both nominees for President of the United States in the 2008 election, U.S. senator Barack Obama and U.S. senator John McCain, did offer backing to Ukraine's membership of NATO. Russian reactions were negative. In April 2008, Russian President Vladimir Putin spoke out against Ukraine's membership in NATO."
This isn't Ukraine trying to join nato, nor nato trying to get Ukraine to join. I think basically all US Presidents have publicly supported Ukraine joining nato, including Clinton, since nato was founded, but there was never a big push until after Crimea was invaded, and Ukrainian support to join nato went from 28% in 2012 to 70% in 2017.
Ukraine was a Soviet republic when NATO was founded, so obviously that would have been impossible. It was a long process beginning with the Clinton administration (though not publicly, IIRC) and continuing with the Orange Revolution, Maidan, and the military build-up of the last decade. Russia's move on Crimea was a predictable result, but the effort was underway long before that.
When Ukraine split off, it wrote into law that it would seek to remain independent of the type of power bloc nato presented. Nato even then, in principle, was open to Ukraine joining, in year 1, but it was so clear it would not, Clinton basically created a partnership program it could join instead, which would make it easier for Ukraine or others to join later, and not spurn nato entirely.
I am not an expert on this but there was no real chance of Ukraine joining nato until after Crimea was invaded, from everything I have read. And therefore no big push, is what I'm calling it. Had Russia not invaded, there never would have been the push, public opinion would not have changed. Many nato countries were on the fence even after 2014, because they truly did not think Russian aggression would continue.
