Redbrickbear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Except the western Ukrainians who are fighting aren't fighting for freedom. They are fighting for the right to be told what to do by Brussels, and for their military to be forced to buy stuff from Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrup-Grumman.

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Bingo.

Ukraine has never been....and never will be....a completely independent actor like the USA is.

Its a minor country pulled between two large Nations/Alliances....USA/EU and the Russian Federation.

Its going to be taking orders from Brussels (and DC) or from Moscow.

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While of course I disagree with your premise, even if true, vast majorities of Eastern Euro people - in fact, most of the world - would much rather be under the "control" of the west than they would Russia.

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Oversimplified, at best. I've posted a pre-Maidan Ukraine poll by USAID showing about equal levels of support for the US and Russia, with the US viewed as slightly more of a threat. It would be one thing if Russia had supported the overthrow of a duly elected government in 2014 and turned Ukraine into a puppet state. The fact that we had to do it instead tells you a lot.

Also, BRICS says hi.

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I was referring to people, not countries, but regardless, BRICS is your retort? What a motley crew that is! But, more importantly, those countries aren't "controlled" by the others, and it's basically an economic alliance, in which most of those countries do as much business with the U.S. as the others.

Is the poll you reference from the East or are you saying the entire country?

As you know, I think it's comical that folks seriously think we were responsible for Maidan. And Russia, they didn't support an overthrow . . . they just invaded . . . twice.

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It was a nationwide poll. Ukraine wasn't really being controlled by Russia either; I was just mirroring your language.

If you like comedy, keep an eye on Georgia. We're currently trying to do the same thing there.

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Is Nuland handing out cookies in Tbilisi now? Seriously, though, you're surprised Georgians don't want to align with Russia?

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You remain steadfastly unaware of what Western NGOs do, and they want to make very certain it stays that way.

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He knows what they do…and he knows they are a tool of DC state craft…that is why he likes them

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How many times do I have to post that of course I know what they do, but I also know others do it too.

And I know they can't just start mass movements. They can and do support those movements, but again, that's been going on for centuries everywhere.

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Except the western Ukrainians who are fighting aren't fighting for freedom. They are fighting for the right to be told what to do by Brussels, and for their military to be forced to buy stuff from Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrup-Grumman.

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Bingo.

Ukraine has never been....and never will be....a completely independent actor like the USA is.

Its a minor country pulled between two large Nations/Alliances....USA/EU and the Russian Federation.

Its going to be taking orders from Brussels (and DC) or from Moscow.

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While of course I disagree with your premise, even if true, vast majorities of Eastern Euro people - in fact, most of the world - would much rather be under the "control" of the west than they would Russia.

But I guess if you think the U.S. and Russia are interchangeable, which a few posters seem to think, then your perspective is at least consistent.

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Well sure...that is why the NATO alliance now has 32 nations in it (spending more than a trillion in military spending and has 969 million people)

While Russia only has Belarus and Kazakhstan...lol

The point is not that the West is more desirable...its that russia will fight for ukraine.

Why would the West risk a potential mass European war over a poor, corrupt, rusting out ex-soviet state on the borders of Russia?

Not to mention that at least 1/3 of Ukrainians are ethnic russians and will always be a destabilizing element inside the country if its brought into the EU/NATO

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Maybe because Ukraine has been trying to get out from being a poor, corrupt, rusting out ex-Soviet state for several decades now. Russia's influential "sphere" would never let them. In essence what's held them back is the Russia in their Ukrainian approach to everything.

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1. You act like being in the EU solves all problems.

Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia are still poor and corrupt and lost out of the promised movement of jobs from the richer EU counties that was promised in the 1990s. Big capital just moved the jobs straight to Asia and cut out the Eastern European/Balkans middle man.

2. But even if getting into the EU solved all problems (and it is most certainly better than Russia) it still does not explain why the USA should get involved in a bloody proxy war to make that happen?

Why should the CIA and U.S. taxpayers being paying for this war?


3. I'm sure Mongolia would be better off as a U.S. state…but that is never going to happen. It's always going to be within the Chinese-sphere of orbit

There are facts on the ground that don't change.

Canada is not getting out from under the wing of the American eagle….for good or bad

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Why are China, Iran, and North Korea doing even more to help Russia?

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They see US power as a threat to them in their regions as well?

Iran was of course nearly surrounded by US bases in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Both have no love for the USA

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They see us as a military threat?